Spoilers Justice League: Rise and Fall Special Preview and Discussion

[Director of Everything]

I want everyone to look at pages 13 and 14.

That's the endless potential of comics right there. Everything that can be great and golden and new about comics is on those pages. You have a multi-page scene between Dick Grayson as Batman and Wally West as The Flash and it's ****ing awesome to look at. It's evolution, it's growth and it's rare. But the possibilities of what could be, or could have once been, are truly beautiful.

The rest of the book is kinda meh.

[komikboy]

She's still young, keeps herself in great shape (have you seen her abs, esepcially in the McKone TT issues? The girl is RIPPED!), and is on high-end medication. Magic Johnson has survived for what, 20 years after being diagnosed, and still is active and relatively healthy. It'll catch up to Mia at some point, and when it does I want a big, emotional, heartwrenching story made out of it, but right now she's still young, stubborn, and capable. And as for Roy's pain...still could have gotten the same effect with teleporting the city. Or having Prometheus kidnap Lian and leave her in another dimension. That give Roy and Ollie something to fight for beyond just rage and vengeance.

michealdark

yea... i know she still young and capable. like i said... i wasn't meant or state that she need to be dying or something like that... but with her high risk activity like that, sometime i feel her condition need to be focused... just to remind us how dangerous HIV could be... isn't that's why they (DC) put HIV issue in the comic in the 1st place?

about Lian... well... i just want to share my opinion about why DC choose Lian to death in the 1st place. They choose it becoz they want to do impact on Roy as hard as they can be.

about Mia... well, i have to question it for u... why the idea Mia is the one who should be death are better then Lian? if it proposinally has the same effect? especially to roy...

and If Prometheus just want to steal Lian, isn't it the story goes into personal? i meant why would Prometheus want to steal her? while in other hand he just want to hurt JLA with the most dreadfull way... anyway, Lian death is mostly accident... a victim, in my perpective, its not like Prometheus focus on her or GA family. And why not prometheus not focus on other heroes if he want to do personal revenge? like animal-man family??? or batman family? isn't GA made Prometheus as equivalent rival to batman?

[Neo God]

The other reason it's ironic is that CfJ was all about heroes learning the difference between revenge and justice. Ollie was hurt as badly from a villain's actions as were Mikael, Bill, and the others.

dadthedude

Really? Opal City was destroyed? Ollie suffered more than the others, and he's the one that took the step to kill Prommy.

Ultimately however, it was Ollie, who earlier stopped the Atom from internally torturing people, who proved to be the only one to take revenge on a villain.

Ok.

As for Roy, there is nothing to see. The title of the series is the "The Rise of Arsenal". Covers have already shown Roy with an artificial limb, and he clearly will have to rise from his maiming and the death of his daughter. Roy will get through it because of the Dinah and because of the Titans, not because of Ollie (same as always

Wait, you already read the comic? Can you give me all the spoilers? How does the Cheshire issue go?

I care to the extent that GA/BC started out as a relatively lighthearted comic, and will now become totally dark.

The fault of previous writers.

I care that DC sold death for death's sake.

Blackest Night is supposed to resolve this.

And I care that DC felt the need to destroy one of its classic characters while simultaneously making a major effort to return many of its other major heroes to iconic status.

Where?

What I don't care about is a predictable "epic" spanning multiple issues and involving many of those same iconic heroes chasing Green Arrow. I don't care how the chase ends, and I don't care what happens in between. I also don't care how the "people who love" Oliver come to grips with what he's done, or how he reconciles with those people.

In short, "The Fall of Green Arrow" is a tale told before, and I do not intend to spend my money on what amounts to a rerun.

So you don't care because you've made up the conclusions of these to be released comics?

Got it.

[michealdark]

Well, why couldn't teleporting the city have worked as well?

I do wish DC would mention Mia's HIV more. I'd love to see a Day in the Life issue for her. It may be boring to some people, but for me I think it would be a raw thing to see her wake up in the morning, taking her medicine, eating breakfast, going to the gym, working her ass off, then huddled over the toilet barfing, then school (if she's still in it), then back to the gym, dinner, going out on patrol, coming in at around 3 in the morning, and then off to bed looking like hell but also looking proud of herself and optimiistic about the next day.

Yeah, i don't know enough about HIV right now to do this myself if given the chance, not without some lead time to do research, but I know the drugs (and this was brought up in Winick's run), make the user nauseous.

[komikboy]

I do wish DC would mention Mia's HIV more. I'd love to see a Day in the Life issue for her. It may be boring to some people, but for me I think it would be a raw thing to see her wake up in the morning, taking her medicine, eating breakfast, going to the gym, working her ass off, then huddled over the toilet barfing, then school (if she's still in it), then back to the gym, dinner, going out on patrol, coming in at around 3 in the morning, and then off to bed looking like hell but also looking proud of herself and optimiistic about the next day. Yeah, i don't know enough about HIV right now to do this myself if given the chance, not without some lead time to do research, but I know the drugs (and this was brought up in Winick's run), make the user nauseous.

see? its intresthing but may become boring issue if they put it like that... but issue like this (HIV on Mia or Junkie on Roy) is something important... they should made reader aware of how dangerous or delicate the situation should be.

but that's another issue to discussed or maybe tehy will put in the story somehow/sometime in betwean the series.

isn't GA made Prometheus as equivalent rival to batman?

i meant GM = Grant Morrison... sorry for the wrong type.

[michealdark]

I think as a one-time thing it could work.

[komikboy]

I think as a one-time thing it could work.

michealdark

hmm... i hope so.
after what being done/writen... looking back into titans #19 is kind of sad, isn't it?

[michealdark]

Yes it is. I think that was the point of it though. It was forshadowing.

[jafabian]

I do wish DC would mention Mia's HIV more. I'd love to see a Day in the Life issue for her. It may be boring to some people, but for me I think it would be a raw thing to see her wake up in the morning, taking her medicine, eating breakfast, going to the gym, working her ass off, then huddled over the toilet barfing, then school (if she's still in it), then back to the gym, dinner, going out on patrol, coming in at around 3 in the morning, and then off to bed looking like hell but also looking proud of herself and optimiistic about the next day. Yeah, i don't know enough about HIV right now to do this myself if given the chance, not without some lead time to do research, but I know the drugs (and this was brought up in Winick's run), make the user nauseous.

michealdark

I've been thinking Mia shouldn't be drawn as slim as she was in Cry For Justice if she's taking typical HIV prescritpions. No, she shouldn't be obese but she tends to be drawn about as slim as Wonder Girl and that's not realistic given her situation.

[TTitanFan25]

I've been thinking Mia shouldn't be drawn as slim as she was in Cry For Justice if she's taking typical HIV prescritpions. No, she shouldn't be obese but she tends to be drawn about as slim as Wonder Girl and that's not realistic given her situation.

jafabian

That is so true, but I have a feeling that most writers/artists aren't aware of her disease.

[dadthedude]

Wait, you already read the comic? Can you give me all the spoilers? How does the Cheshire issue go?

neogod557

Cheshire blames Roy for Lian's death and tries to kill him. Roy doesn't die. I'd say more, but I don't want to ruin the book for others.

More to the point, DC has done a good job with the core Titans characters in terms of their growth into adulthood and their growth as heroes. Wally became the Flash and matured, Dick outgrew Robin, became Nightwing, and is now Batman. Roy overcame heroin addiction, became a father, and established himself as a hero in his own right. We also know that the Titans are more than teammates, they are family. They rely on each other, and they can count on each other to be there. I don't see any of the Titans abandoning Roy, and I see Roy leaning on them more than on Ollie.

Do I know this for sure? Of course not. But I am confident that Roy will rise from the ashes of his current tragedies. I'm just not that interested in seeing exactly how.

Blackest Night is supposed to resolve this.

I was under the impression that Blackest Night resolves the issue of the "revolving door" surrounding the death and resurrection of heroes. It does not address a comic book company selling gratuitous death.

"I care that DC felt the need to destroy one of its classic characters while simultaneously making a major effort to return many of its other major heroes to iconic status." - Dadthedude "Where?" - Neo

Not to belabor the point, but Hal is back as Green Lantern, Barry is back as the Flash, Ray Palmer is back as the Atom, Bruce Wayne is coming back, and Aquaman appears to be returning.

The fault of the writers.

I agree. Since coming back to reclaim his role as Green Arrow, Ollie added a new sidekick, was Mayor of his city, and married (and partnered) with Black Canary. All of these attempts have clearly failed to maintain GA's brief spurts of popularity.

So you don't care because you've made up the conclusions of these to be released comics?

My opinions have nothing at all to do with making up conclusions for "to be released comics", Neo.

Consider the following. Two miniseries that I disliked were "Final Crisis" and "Cry for Justice". Although I disliked FC, I was interested in the new direction the Bat books took at the conclusion of the miniseries, and I'm looking forward to seeing how Bruce Wayne returns this year. Further, I was not a regular purchaser of the Bat books, but I am now. By comparison, Cry for Justice did nothing to pique my curiosity regarding what happens to Roy and Oliver. If anything, it turned me off to them completely.

[oddballuk]

This issue is out today everyone so let's start focusing the discussion towards what occurs in the actual issue and leave theorising on how Roy's mini will go to threads on that mini (if there is one) and discussion over whether DC was right or not to kill the character discussed in it's own thread or one of threads discussing the comic in which the death occurred.



This special looks to be focused on Ollie's journey now and unless there are events in the special other than that, then lets focus on that.

[hoyatables]

Enjoyed it very much.

[Ramon]

Ok, let me put my two cents regarding Mia's condition. I am a physician and while I do not specialize in Infectious Diseases, I do have patients with HIV in my practice and I understand the disease and the treatment.

The first thing to differentiate is HIV positive and AIDS. They are not the same thing and should not be confused. I know it can be difficult but HIV is the virus that "CAN" cause AIDS. It is not the virus that "WILL" cause AIDS.
On the other hand AIDS is a disease in which your immune system is shut down by the HIV virus and you are vulnerable to multiple infections.

There is a very small percentage of the population who have certain immunity to the virus and even if exposed to it, they will never become carriers.
The rest of the population who are HIV positive are carriers of a virus that can cause a disease. They do not have the disease. They are not immunodeficient, their immune system is working fine (as long as they take their meds and the treatment works). So, they are not more succeptible to infections. Yes, they need to be watched carefully everytime they are sick, to see if it is just a common flu or cold (they can also get it) or to see if the HIV has become resistant to the treatment and the patient is developing AIDS.

These days if a patient gets treated, they can have a very normal healthy life without ever changing their status from HIV positive to AIDS for many years. I actually have a friend couple who one is HIV positive and the other one is negative and they have been like that and happily together for more than 15 years.

Now, regarding the treatment. It has changed a lot over the last decades, and while some regimens can cause nausea, vomiting and a few more serious side effects, that's all it is, a side effect, like any other medication. And yes they are more common that getting a side effect from a simple antibiotic or tylenol, but it is not a rule. A great number of patients (I do not know the exact number, but I know is not a small percentage) do not have any side effect and can tolerate the treatment just fine.

Last year I was talking to one of my nurses about HIV and other deadly diseases and they were very surprised when I told them I rather get infected with HIV and live as a seropositive person that get diagnosed with cancer or get a heart attack and develop heart failure and a lot more other diseases that while seen as more benign, will definitelly not let me be alive, happy and working 20 or more years from now.

Regarding Mia, is totally understandable that she is still an active heroine and does not has to worry about infections (she is just HIV positive, she does not have AIDS) or sideeffects, the way I see it she is one of the many who can tolerate the treatment. What we should see mentioned more often, at least the way Geoff mentioned in his Teen Titans run, is what happens when she is injured or bleeding? That is a whole different senario.

Thanks for reading, and glad to help a little bit.

[Raydawggie]

Good issue. I like the way Krul writes Ollie, and it makes a lot more sense why he's being hunted now - not just for Prometheus' killing.

I sincerely doubt that Roy's mini is going to go the direction of him rising from the ashes, though.

[TTitanFan25]

What we should see mentioned more often, at least the way Geoff mentioned in his Teen Titans run, is what happens when she is injured or bleeding? That is a whole different senario. Thanks for reading, and glad to help a little bit.

Ramon

You did, thanks. I do a lot of volunteering and it is an issue that most are scared or clueless about. Geoff addressing it was very important and since comics reach a wide audience, it'd be nice if they more characters dealt with issues like this to bring awareness to the conditions.