Blackest Night #7 Thread (Spoilers)

[chrisbenes]

Actually the sun is a third generation (population 1 technically) star not a second generation (population 2) star.

Black_Adamantium

You are correct about the population 1, but our sun is still generally considered a second generation as there's no way to prove it's a third (or more) generation. The only way they know for sure our sun is at least second generation is because of the trace elements and the "heavy" metals found within our solar system. http://space.about.com/od/solarsyste...un10things.htm

KevinTBrown

But we are not talking about our sun. We are talking about a fictional sun that does not really exsist. Maybe the DCU sun has a Sodam Yat in it keeping it alive

[KevinTBrown]

Again, Chris, a suspension of disbelief has its limits.

[Black_Adamantium]

You are correct about the population 1, but our sun is still generally considered a second generation as there's no way to prove it's a third (or more) generation. The only way they know for sure our sun is at least second generation is because of the trace elements and the "heavy" metals found within our solar system.

KevinTBrown

It may only be a matter of terminology, but I was always taught that the sun was a third generation star since its hypothesized that population 3 stars had no metallic content at all (or only a small amount at the core) since the first generation of stars would have formed at a time when pretty much only hydrogen and helium existed in the universe. Their destruction would have led to the population 2 (second generation) stars which had a low metal content, followed by population 1 (third generation) stars such as our sun which have a "high" metal content. (high being in the range of 1-2%)

The sun is a relatively young star, a member of a generation of stars known as Population I stars. An older generation of stars is called Population II. There may have existed an earlier generation, called Population III. However, no members of this generation are known. The remainder of this section refers to three generations of stars. The three generations differ in their content of chemical elements heavier than helium. First-generation stars have the lowest percentage of these elements, and second-generation stars have a higher percentage. The sun and other third-generation stars have the highest percentage of elements heavier than helium. The percentages differ in this way because first- and second-generation stars that "died" passed along their heavier elements. Many of these stars produced successively heavier elements by means of fusion in and near their cores. The heaviest elements were created when the most massive stars exploded as supernovae. Supernovae enrich the clouds of gas and dust from which other stars form. Other sources of enrichment are planetary nebulae, the cast-off outer layers of less massive stars.

http://www.nasa.gov/worldbook/sun_worldbook.html


Granted no population 3 stars have been directly observed, (although indirect evidence of them may have been) but then the most accepted theories state that these would have been super-massive stars (anywhere from 100-several hundred times the mass of the sun) that would have died very early in the universe's history. Either way though, population 3 stars had to exist unless the current big bang theory is way, way off. Which is possible though not probable.

Population III or metal-free stars (they contained metals at the very end of their lifetimes – they are said to be metal-free because the metals exist in the core and are unobservable) are a hypothetical population of extremely massive and hot stars with virtually no surface metals, except for a small quantity of metals formed in the Big Bang, such as Lithium-7. These stars are believed to have been formed in the early universe. They have not yet been observed directly, but indirect evidence for their existence has been found in a gravitationally lensed galaxy in the very distant universe.[7] They are also thought to be components of faint blue galaxies. Their existence is proposed to account for the fact that heavy elements, which could not have been created in the Big Bang, are observed in quasar emission spectra, as well as the existence of faint blue galaxies.[8] It is believed that these stars triggered a period of reionization. Current theory is divided on whether the first stars were very massive or not. One theory, which seems to be borne out by computer models of star formation, is that with no heavy elements from the Big Bang, it was easy to form stars with much more total mass than the ones visible today. Typical masses for Population III stars would be expected to be about several hundred solar masses, which is much larger than the current stars. Analysis of data on low-metallicity Population II stars, which are thought to contain the metals produced by Population III stars, suggest that these metal-free stars had masses of 10 to 100 solar masses instead. This also explains why there have been no low-mass stars with zero metallicity observed. Confirmation of these theories awaits the launch of NASA's James Webb Space Telescope. New spectroscopic surveys, such as SEGUE or SDSS-II, may also locate Population III stars. The most massive star that can form today is theorized to be about 110 solar masses, with a possible observed extreme upper limit of 150 solar masses; a more massive protostar would blow itself apart during the initial ignition of nuclear reactions. Without enough carbon, oxygen, and nitrogen in the core, however, the CNO cycle could not begin and the star would not destroy itself so readily. Direct fusion through the proton-proton chain does not proceed quickly enough to produce the copious amounts of energy such a star would need to support its immense bulk. The end result would be the star collapsing into a black hole without ever actually shining properly. This is why astronomers consider Population III to be something of a mystery — by all rights they should not exist, yet they are necessary for an explanation of the quasar observations.[citation needed] If these stars were able to form properly, their lifespan would be extremely short, certainly less than one million years. As they can no longer form today, viewing one would require us to look to the very edges of the observable universe, since the time it takes light to reach Earth from great distances is extremely great, it is possible to see "back in time" by looking farther away. Seeing to this distance while still being able to resolve a star could prove difficult, even for the James Webb Space Telescope.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metallicity

[Thrillho]

So it's beleiveable that people run around in tights and fly but not that the Earth may be older than 3.5 billion years old? It's beleiveable that Adam Strange can transport via a Zeta whatever from Earth and Rann but yet not that the Earth could be older than 3.5 billion years old? I's beleivable that little blue smurfs oversee an intergalatic police force in the GLC but not that the Earth could be older that 3.5 billion years old. It's also beleivable that there was Zeta technology that was able to transport a planet from it's original orbit across the galaxy but not that the earth is 3.5 billion years old? I'm sure that if need be it could be explained how the Earth is older than once thought in the DCU. And really when it comes to comics. The word beleive should be tossed out the window because almost none of it is really beleiveable. But that's just my opinion

chrisbenes

I can happily accept almost every implausible or unrealistic "fact" that is stated in comics, yet strangely enough, the one thing that brings me to a screeching halt is that the German language comes from outer space. That just throws so many other things for a loop, if I think about it too hard my brain explodes in a shower of sparks and I'm no good to anyone for a while.

[chrisbenes]

I can happily accept almost every implausible or unrealistic "fact" that is stated in comics, yet strangely enough, the one thing that brings me to a screeching halt is that the German language comes from outer space. That just throws so many other things for a loop, if I think about it too hard my brain explodes in a shower of sparks and I'm no good to anyone for a while.

Thrillho

Now this is funny.

And I'm the same way. The way I look at it is...It's a comic. Nothing is real and anything can be explained if needed. Now people may not like how it's explained but everything is explainable.

Well obviously except for the German language

[PyroTwilight]

Now this is funny. And I'm the same way. The way I look at it is...It's a comic. Nothing is real and anything can be explained if needed. Now people may not like how it's explained but everything is explainable. Well obviously except for the German language

chrisbenes

And don't forget. Egyptian is actually (Ancient?) Thanagarian.

[chrisbenes]

And don't forget. Egyptian is actually (Ancient?) Thanagarian.

PyroTwilight

Now I'm sorry...I just can't beleive that

[KevinTBrown]

Now I'm sorry...I just can't beleive that

chrisbenes

While you're trying to deflect and joke about it, I'm not. It's dumb science. At least there's some semblance of scientific fact in most comic books, even though it's highly exaggerated and can be eye rolling at times.

Seriously, try reading the Science of Superheroes. It's a fun and interesting read and gets you to thinking.

[Limelantern]

Maybe it's not so much that Earth was the very first planet to actually have evolved life on it, but it is just the spot where the White Entity came from. Flew around the universe spreading life all over, then came right back to Earth to settle down under California. Finally planting life on Earth at that time.

Which could still make Earth the latecomer in the universe while maintaining the White Entity came from here theory.


Or it could be something totally different, since we know almost nothing about it. Just that stabbing it appears to hurt everything at the same time.

[Thrillho]

Now this is funny. And I'm the same way. The way I look at it is...It's a comic. Nothing is real and anything can be explained if needed. Now people may not like how it's explained but everything is explainable. Well obviously except for the German language

chrisbenes

Laugh if you may, but it totally doesn't fit, and in a bad way. There is the whole matter of cognates between English and German, there is the enormous body of literature in Germany detailing the gradual transitions of language over a thousand years and longer, there is the whole freakin' Indo-European language tree ... ghaah, now my brain-gears are overheating and slipping again.

What makes this hard to swallow, I think, is that it's not a matter of archaeology or astronomy ... it's a matter of history as recorded at the time by native speakers. Look, here's a contemporary woodcut (mid 1400s) all about Vlad Tepes, and the German there isn't exactly the same German as is spoken in outer space:



I don't think Geoff or anyone needs to "fix" this, but it's a source of mental retardation for me.

[Bizarro #98]

While you're trying to deflect and joke about it, I'm not.

KevinTBrown

At least he's trying to make something amusing out of the joyless lecture this thread has become.

[chrisbenes]

While you're trying to deflect and joke about it, I'm not. It's dumb science. At least there's some semblance of scientific fact in most comic books, even though it's highly exaggerated and can be eye rolling at times. Seriously, try reading the Science of Superheroes. It's a fun and interesting read and gets you to thinking.

KevinTBrown

If you can't joke about comic book science then what can you joke about?

It's fiction. It's fun. And the best thing about it for me...I don;t have to try to think about how it works. If the story is good that's enough for me.

[ADGood]

Again, Chris, a suspension of disbelief has its limits.

KevinTBrown

I think that DC's assumption is that if the big wall made from dead giants at the end of space didn't breach that limit, then nothing would.

[heffison]

Look, here's a contemporary woodcut (mid 1400s) all about Vlad Tepes, and the German there isn't exactly the same German as is spoken in outer space: I don't think Geoff or anyone needs to "fix" this, but it's a source of mental retardation for me.

Thrillho

The 1400s? So that's not a page from Cry for Justice?


I guess it would be a bit of a stretch to claim that the German language of the DCU had a different history than the one of our Earth. Unless Mr. Mind ate that part of history at the end of 52. But where did they say that German was a space language?

[Thrillho]

The 1400s? So that's not a page from Cry for Justice?

heffison

Heh. You win this thread. ;-)

I guess it would be a bit of a stretch to claim that the German language of the DCU had a different history than the one of our Earth. Unless Mr. Mind ate that part of history at the end of 52. But where did they say that German was a space language?

This was back in the story arc with the Shark and Hector Hammond, so maybe issues 4-6 of the current GL series. There were these alien gremlin guys what spoke modern high German (rather than, say, an Austrian dialect), and some GLs from another sector explained to Hal that German came from outer space.

Again, I'm really, really not trying to be anal retentive about this -- though Lord knows I love a good anal retentive thread -- but this is one revelation I just can't wrap my mind around. We would do well to consider it a personal failing of mine.

[TJLamb0518]

Seriously, try reading the Science of Superheroes. It's a fun and interesting read and gets you to thinking.

KevinTBrown

I ....don't think I could buy such a book without also buying a noose and a step stool.


Seriously, there's a limit to the level I would be able to take enjoying the thought of superheroes. Science books about them seems way past that level.